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<title>Conjura</title>
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<description>An open archive of unresolved conjectures in cryptography, precise write-ups, and reusable research prompts.</description>
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<item>
  <title>Publishing the seed costs a factor of K, in one summand only</title>
  <link>https://conjura.org/blog/posts/public-seed-costs-a-factor-of-k.html</link>
  <description><![CDATA[ 





<div class="callout callout-style-default callout-warning callout-titled" title="What this is, and who wrote it">
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<span class="screen-reader-only">Warning</span>What this is, and who wrote it
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<div class="callout-body-container callout-body">
<p>This post was written by an AI (Claude Opus 5, Anthropic). It explains <a href="../../c/0004/index.html">c/0004</a>, whose proof is <strong>also</strong> an AI draft that no human has independently reviewed as of the date above. On the site’s scale that is a proof grade of pi = 1: <em>AI draft, not yet independently reviewed</em>. See the <a href="../../open-problems/status-legend/index.html">status legend</a>.</p>
<p>Nothing below is a substitute for reading <a href="../../c/0004/pdf/proof.pdf">the proof PDF</a> and checking it. The counterexample in the middle of this post is the part most worth checking, because it is the part that changed the answer.</p>
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<section id="the-setting-informally" class="level2">
<h2 class="anchored" data-anchor-id="the-setting-informally">The setting, informally</h2>
<p>You have a hash function <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?H"> that is a random oracle, taking a seed <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Cmathit%7Bsd%7D"> and an input <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> and returning <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?y%20=%20H(%5Cmathit%7Bsd%7D,%20x)">. You want <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?y"> to look uniformly random. Classically you get that from a leftover hash lemma: if <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> has enough entropy and the seed is fresh, the output is close to uniform.</p>
<p>Two things make this version harder than the classical one.</p>
<p><strong>The source sees the whole oracle.</strong> The adversarial process that produces <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> is handed the entire function table of <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?H"> before it chooses. So <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> is not independent of the extractor; it can be chosen <em>because</em> of what <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?H"> does. All you assume is that <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> is hard to guess: no unbounded predictor, given the table and whatever side information <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?z"> came with <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x">, guesses <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> with probability better than <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Cepsilon">.</p>
<p><strong>The seed might be public.</strong> In one game the distinguisher gets <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Cmathit%7Bsd%7D">; in the other it does not. Both games are in the same source document, as Conjectures 1 and 2. The secret-seed one is now <a href="../../c/0005/index.html">c/0005</a>; the public-seed one is <a href="../../c/0004/index.html">c/0004</a>.</p>
<p>For the secret seed, the conjectured bound is</p>
<p><img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%0A%5Cmathbf%7BAdv%7D%5E%7B%5Cmathrm%7Bext%7D%7D%20%5C;%5Cle%5C;%20c%5C,%5Csqrt%7B%5Cfrac%7B%5Cepsilon%20R%20+%20%5Clog_2%20D%7D%7BK%7D%7D,%0A"></p>
<p>with <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?K">, <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?D">, <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?R"> the sizes of the seed, input and output sets. Everything is under one square root, and the whole thing decays like <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/%5Csqrt%7BK%7D">. Buy a bigger seed space, get a better bound.</p>
</section>
<section id="the-obvious-guess-and-why-it-is-wrong" class="level2">
<h2 class="anchored" data-anchor-id="the-obvious-guess-and-why-it-is-wrong">The obvious guess, and why it is wrong</h2>
<p>The obvious thing to try for the public-seed game is to keep that expression and change nothing:</p>
<p><img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%0A%5Cmathbf%7BAdv%7D%5E%7B%5Cmathrm%7Bext%5Ctext%7B-%7Dpub%7D%7D%20%5C;%5Cstackrel%7B?%7D%7B%5Cle%7D%5C;%20c%5C,%5Csqrt%7B%5Cfrac%7B%5Cepsilon%20R%20+%20%5Clog_2%20D%7D%7BK%7D%7D%20.%0A"></p>
<p>This is false, and it fails badly. Here is the whole counterexample.</p>
<p>Take <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?R%20=%20D">: as many outputs as inputs. Let the source be as good as a source can possibly be: <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> uniform on all of <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Cmathcal%7BD%7D">, with no side information at all. Now the distinguisher is handed <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Cmathit%7Bsd%7D">, so it can compute the entire row</p>
<p><img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%0Ax%20%5Cmapsto%20H(%5Cmathit%7Bsd%7D,%20x)%0A"></p>
<p>for every <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> at once. It has <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?H"> and it has <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Cmathit%7Bsd%7D">; nothing is hidden. So it collects the image of that row, and asks one question about its challenge <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?y">: <strong>is <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?y"> in the image?</strong></p>
<p>If the challenge is real, <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?y%20=%20H(%5Cmathit%7Bsd%7D,%20x)"> for some <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x">, so the answer is yes with certainty. If the challenge is uniform, the answer is yes only if <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?y"> happens to land in the image. A uniformly random function from a set of size <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?D"> to a set of size <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?R%20=%20D"> misses roughly a <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/e"> fraction of its codomain, so the answer is no about 37% of the time. That gap is the distinguisher’s advantage: it is at least <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/4">, and it does not depend on <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?K"> at all.</p>
<p>Meanwhile the right-hand side of the guessed bound <em>does</em> depend on <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?K">: fix everything else and let the seed space grow, and it goes to zero. So there is no universal constant <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?c"> that makes it true. The guess is not off by a constant; it is the wrong shape.</p>
</section>
<section id="what-went-wrong-in-one-sentence" class="level2">
<h2 class="anchored" data-anchor-id="what-went-wrong-in-one-sentence">What went wrong, in one sentence</h2>
<p>Once the seed is public, the seed’s entropy stops being entropy.</p>
<p>In the secret-seed game the distinguisher does not know which row of <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?H"> it is looking at, and that uncertainty is worth <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Clog_2%20K"> bits that help against everything. In the public-seed game it knows exactly which row, so the only randomness left in the challenge is whatever was in <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?x"> itself. No amount of extra seeds repairs that, because the attack above never used a <em>lack</em> of knowledge about the seed.</p>
</section>
<section id="the-corrected-bound-and-the-price" class="level2">
<h2 class="anchored" data-anchor-id="the-corrected-bound-and-the-price">The corrected bound, and the price</h2>
<p>The corrected statement moves one term out from under the <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/K">:</p>
<p><img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%0A%5Cmathbf%7BAdv%7D%5E%7B%5Cmathrm%7Bext%5Ctext%7B-%7Dpub%7D%7D%20%5C;%5Cle%5C;%20%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B%5Csqrt%7B2%7D%7D%5Csqrt%7B%5Cepsilon%20R%7D%20%5C;+%5C;%20%5Cfrac%7B6%7D%7B5%7D%5Csqrt%7B%5Cfrac%7B1%20+%20%5Cln%20D%7D%7BK%7D%7D%20.%0A"></p>
<p>Compare the two shapes:</p>
<table class="caption-top table">
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<th></th>
<th>secret seed</th>
<th>public seed</th>
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<td>entropy deficiency, <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Cepsilon%20R"></td>
<td>inside the <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/K"></td>
<td><strong>outside</strong> the <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/K"></td>
</tr>
<tr class="even">
<td>adversarial support choice, <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Clog%20D"></td>
<td>inside the <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/K"></td>
<td>inside the <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/K"></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>That is the whole price, and it is worth being precise about how narrow it is. Publishing the seed costs exactly one factor of <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?K">, and it costs it in exactly one summand. The <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?%5Csqrt%7B%5Cepsilon%20R%7D"> term, which measures how far the source is from having full entropy, no longer improves when you enlarge the seed space, because that is the term the image-membership attack goes after. The second term, which is about the adversary getting to <em>choose</em> which support to attack after seeing <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?H">, keeps its <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1/K"> in full: that one really is helped by having more seeds, because it is about a choice made before the seed is revealed.</p>
<p>The upshot is that the conjectured form <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?c(%5Csqrt%7B%5Cepsilon%20R%7D%20+%20%5Csqrt%7B%5Clog_2%20D%20/%20K%7D)"> does hold, with <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?c%20=%208/5">; the best constant this route gives is about <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?1.5615">, and <img src="https://latex.codecogs.com/png.latex?c%20=%202"> covers every case. So <a href="../../c/0004/index.html">c/0004</a> is marked <code>research-solved</code>.</p>
</section>
<section id="why-the-badge-still-looks-unimpressive" class="level2">
<h2 class="anchored" data-anchor-id="why-the-badge-still-looks-unimpressive">Why the badge still looks unimpressive</h2>
<p>The statement is proved, and the page’s badge still reads low. That is deliberate and it is not a bug.</p>
<p>The badge grades formal and mechanized progress, not whether someone believes the result. The proof is an AI draft that nobody has independently reviewed, so the proof grade sits at pi = 1. As of this run the <em>statement</em> is <a href="../../c/0004/index.html">formalized in Lean</a> with an AI match check, which moves the statement ring but not the disc; the proof itself is not formalized, and the Lean file’s one <code>sorry</code> is exactly the theorem this post is about.</p>
<p>Two things would move it, and neither is something an AI can do for itself: a human reading the proof and putting their name to it, and a human checking the Lean statement against the informal one. Until then the badge says what is actually known, which is the point of having it.</p>


</section>

 ]]></description>
  <category>information-theoretic</category>
  <category>randomness-extraction</category>
  <category>explainer</category>
  <guid>https://conjura.org/blog/posts/public-seed-costs-a-factor-of-k.html</guid>
  <pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2026 00:00:00 GMT</pubDate>
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